
William Crawley interviewed Professor Julie Macfarlane on Radio 4 on the Sunday Programme last week-end. The interview (transcribed below) follows the extradition, trial and conviction of her abuser, the Rev Meirion Griffiths. The interview makes vividly clear the mismatch, on the part of the Church, between protestations of ‘deep sorrow and remorse’ and the litigious games sometimes played against survivors who seek to bring their complaints of abuse against the Church.
William Crawley When reporting on child sexual cases as we often do on this programme, we try to hear from victims and survivors to understand their treatment and their experience both from the church and the legal system. What though if an abuse survivor is also a professor of law? What unique insights could they bring of being a complainant in our legal system and about the role of the Church in those very challenging circumstances.
This week a retired priest of the Church of England, the Revd. Meirion Griffiths who is now 81 was convicted of sexually assaulting a teenager and another woman in the 1970s and 1980s while he was Rector of St Pancras and St John in Chichester. One of those women was Dr Julie Macfarlane who is now Professor of Law in the University of Windsor in Canada.
Julie Macfarlane It would have been devastating not to have convicted somebody who I have known for almost my whole life, did some terrible things to me and I also know to many other people. So, that moment when I heard he was convicted was an enormous sense of relief. It was not validation for a survivor to hear that there is a conviction because we know it is true but it is a huge relief to know that the process is finally over.
WC Can you tell me a little bit about how the abuse you experienced affected you throughout your life?
JM I spent the first twenty years afterwards really trying to just ignore it and get on with my life. I was ambitious – I was developing a career – I started to have a family and I really stuffed it down. But I knew that at some point I would have to do something about it because I knew that it was going to be a predatory pattern that I had witnessed and that there were other people out there and I felt a moral responsibility to stop it. It will always be part of my life – this abuse. It is impossible for a survivor to imagine what it would be like without having experienced that trauma and I do have chronic PTSD and I have learned over the years to manage that as well as possible. But it is an experience that stays with you for ever and affects your reactions to life and your feelings about things that happened to you for ever.
WC And many victims and survivors, as you know, have over the years spoken about burying their story and their fears about the re-traumatisation that they might experience going through the criminal justice system. Were you re-traumatised?
JM Oh, absolutely. The cross-examination process, even for somebody like myself who, you would say, William, understands the process – I have been training lawyers for forty years – is absolutely brutal. And it’s brutal because we continue to have at the centre of this process an idea of relevance and credibility that we associate with the evidence of victims which completely misunderstands the impact of trauma and what this is really like. So, I was asked repeatedly to relive a situation which was incredibly painful for me. Every single minute difference of description was seized upon. So we have this idea that any possible inconsistency, however minute, is relevant and that the witness should be taken to task. I sometimes compare this to asking somebody who ran out of a burning house 30 years ago what colour socks they were wearing. And, if they get the colour wrong then it is: ‘Aha you see, you are not credible!’ These are not issues that affect people’s credibility and truthfulness, but it has become an accepted part of the process that there should be a tearing down of a victim – what we sometimes call ‘witness whacking’. And I was asked over and over again during my cross-examination both times, ‘you’re lying aren’t you Professor Macfarlane’. Indeed, the degree of public humiliation and excoriation that victims have to go through in order to testify is absolutely insane. And, you know, I have some real advantages and privileges here and it was incredibly traumatising for me. I cannot imagine how we can expect people to do this.
WC Julie. What about your experience of the Church’s role, how things worked out, how things played out in the court.
JM. They were completely at arms’ length at the criminal trial. I think that that is wrong. I think that in a case like this where there has been a previous investigation followed by his resignation, then a criminal suit which was successfully settled. Where everybody knows that these things happened, I think that the Church should have been proactive in making a supportive statement towards the two complainants – myself and the other complainant. My experience over the years of talking to the Church about this issue is that they talk out of both sides of their mouths. In public they talk about their deep sorrow and remorse. In reality, in civil cases they are playing the most aggressive litigation game imaginable. I know this because I study and write about litigation games and they are not following through with what they say is their commitment to understand the truth of what happened. In fact, they are vigorously resisting the truth of what happened. If the Church really meant what it says about being sorrowful about the thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands worldwide victims of clerical abuse, they would be finding a way to encourage people to come forward. They would not be resisting it. They would not be putting road-blocks in people’s way both in a civil case and in a criminal case, by simply allowing somebody to be torn to pieces as I and the other complainant had to be in order to convince a jury of the truth of what we were saying. And I don’t want to sugar-coat this. It is a horrifying experience. But here is the important thing. Unless we step forward, unless we talk about this, unless people are able to do this, nothing is ever going to change in this culture. This affects everybody from law professors across the board. And we need people to step forward and say that this happened. And you know, at the moment you do have to be very tough to go through this process.
WC Professor Julie Macfarlane








